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CSM Formal Meeting 4. Thursday 12th June. 20:00hours Eve Time

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Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 12:36:00 - [1] CSM Issue sign off meeting, thursday 12th June, 20:00 hours Eve time. This is a sign off meeting for the Issues raised onto the agenda for Iceland so far. The intention is to check that we have formal submission documentation for each issue raised, supported and voted onto the agenda so the documentation can be bundled up and indexed and sent to CCP by the CSM secretary following the meeting. All items for submission need to be mailed to Ankhesentapemkah before by 01:00 hours on Thursday afternoon for the issue to be heard at the sign-off meeting that evening. Any items that are not received in time may be struck off the agenda of issues to be discussed in Iceland at the discretion of the committee The list below shows issues cross-referenced with the CSM rep responsible for those issues, we expect the CSM reps listed below to produce the submission docs from the template here and have these documents mailed to the CSM secretary (by csm mail address) by the deadline of 01:00 hours Thursday afternoon. Delegated to: Ankhesentapemkah Removal of 30/90 day gametime codes Logserver exploitation and Bacon Making suicide-ganking more difficult General Eve Forums improvement/fixing Delegated to: Bane Glorious Skill Queue Functionality Delegated to: Darius Johnson Re-examination of 0.0 Sovereignty Delegated to: Dierdra Val Evaluation of empire war dec mechanics Reload all Ammo Delegated to: Hardin Drone Implants Improve Bombs Delegated to: Inanna Zuni 5% voter issue Alliances and Faction Warfare Proposals for UI Improvements Replace double-click in a chat channel Cargo hold size of ships in hanger but not in use Delegated to: Inanna Zuni Delegated to: Jade Constantine Improvements to Black Ops CSM should vote for its own chairman Feasibility of Outposts going boom Aggression timer is too short/variable hull fix Delegated to: LaVista Science Industry + Secondary Market (Issue passed on the condition that document is split into major topics for individual confirming votes prior to submission) Rigged ships and cargo Delegated to: Serenity Steele Jumpbridges and Cynojammer fix Transferable Killrights Funky POS Alterations To recap, these Issues need to be properly written up and mailed to Ankhesentapemkah by 01:00 hours - Thursday June 12th. Then we'll check to documents at the meeting in the evening (20:00 hours) prior to giving the CSM secretary permission to index and send directly to CCP in advance of the formal meetings next week. (In the event that Eve is still down following the patch - we'll do this by IRC.) CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 12:41:00 - [2] Originally by: Waterfowl Democracy I feel it's unfair to relegate my issue with cynojammers and jumpbridges to Serenity Steele, a CSM representative who has no concept of the problems involved in this issue. He advocated a form of CONCORD in 0.0 space for god's sake. Life is unfair. I emphasize with your plight I really do. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 12:56:00 - [3] Originally by: Ceros X http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=777772 the issues discussed in this thread, namely the ability of the council to call for a vote of no confidence in the chairperson and a formalization of the powers of the position of chairperson to moderate discussion during formal sittings of the council needs to be added to the agenda tia Get a CSM rep to post here requesting it and they will be. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 13:05:00 - [4] Originally by: Waterfowl Democracy Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Ceros X http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=777772 the issues discussed in this thread, namely the ability of the council to call for a vote of no confidence in the chairperson and a formalization of the powers of the position of chairperson to moderate discussion during formal sittings of the council needs to be added to the agenda tia Get a CSM rep to post here requesting it and they will be. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=777772&page=5#142 - Bane giving his support http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=777772&page=5#145 - La Vista giving his support OH SNAP (YOU GOT SERVED) ((TALK ABOUT OWNED)) (((GO BACK TO YOUR MASTERS IN ARTHURIAN LITERATURE AND LEARN TO READ A THREAD))) They can post in this thread requesting it on the agenda and it'll be done. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 13:19:00 - [5] Originally by: Waterfowl Democracy Originally by: Jade Constantine They can post in this thread requesting it on the agenda and it'll be done. [in character] Frantically Jade struggles to grasp the fish that represented his meagre power in the CSM process. It was slippery however and it slipped one last time out of his hands and into the turbulent waters below his feet. "NOOOOO", Jade called out to the emptiness surrounding him, "MY PRECIOUS." You really are trying quite hard today. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 13:24:00 - [6] Originally by: Waterfowl Democracy Originally by: LaVista Vista But I also stated that I at this time do not wish to bring up this issue. Learn to read a thread. It is not my fault that you cannot stay facing one direction long enough to stop getting dizzy. Your support post in that thread indicates that you do wish it to be discussed at the CSM. And yet later you state that you don't. Please make up your mind before telling other people to read threads, you can't even manage to read your own previous posts. Don't cry waterfowl, maybe Bane will post the issue for you. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 13:36:00 - [7] Originally by: Tabouli he's posting here because he was muted on our own forums which is pretty ironic really heh, agreed! You know it did strike me that one of the masterstrokes of CCP's CSM concept was that it has acted as a flycatcher/bugzapper for all of goonswarms most annoying posters who get drawn to these assembly/jita forums and by consequence spend less time messing up CAOD ... makes you think. /tinfoil. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 13:42:00 - [8] Originally by: Bane Glorious "Capital Ships Online" Buff Large Autocannons (especially Dual 650mms and 800mms) Abolish Learning Skills Those will be for the Sunday following Bane - to be announced. Since they are 7 day issues that need to be formally voted. Remember that as agreed yesterday you'll need to provide the fully-written submission template with each of those and if they get voted through. This Thursday meeting is currently purely to confirm items for submission before the CCP deadline. + any crazy admin sack the chair / abolish moderation style procedural votes that people want to bring to filibuster the meeting with if they get bum-rushed into it by forum nonsense. Anything after that / including the sunday issues we'll be submitting as a secondary group and asking CCP to make an exception on the 7 in advance rule if we have the time on the agenda. TL:DR version. I'll put those on the agenda for the Sunday meeting, but you'll need to make sure each issue is fully documented with the CCP submission template. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.09 13:45:00 - [9] Originally by: Tabouli Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Tabouli he's posting here because he was muted on our own forums which is pretty ironic really heh, agreed! You know it did strike me that one of the masterstrokes of CCP's CSM concept was that it has acted as a flycatcher/bugzapper for all of goonswarms most annoying posters who get drawn to these assembly/jita forums and by consequence spend less time messing up CAOD ... makes you think. /tinfoil. no it's ironic because he was muted Yes I know. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.11 00:21:00 - [10] Originally by: Orion Moonstar Originally by: Jade Constantine Delegated to: Jade Constantine CSM should vote for its own chairman How on earth does this make sense. It's like asking a president about to get impeached if impeaching should be allowed. This should be delegated to someone that isn't GS/you/people you muted How about the fact I want to measure to get through? I want it written into the constitution and I want to make sure all future CSM Chairs are elected by the committee. Kinda gives me a decent motive to make it happen doncha think?
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.11 00:27:00 - [11] Originally by: Darius JOHNSON Originally by: Darius JOHNSON I believe these meetings are supposed to be scheduled in such a way that all may attend. 4pm East Coast US time on a week day is typically during the work day. I'm going to ask that you reschedule for a time when all of the elected representatives can attend. Someone seems to have conveniently overlooked this comment. Sorry Darius, couldn't find a way to do it this time. Still, we do have two meetings this week, I'm just posting up the details of the sunday one where you can bring up your votes and motions and whatnot. As we all agreed last week this mid-week one is for confirming the issues are properly documented and sent to Ank. Make sure you get yours done and emailed by the deadline on thursday and all well.
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.11 00:33:00 - [12] Originally by: Aprudena Gist so why not have them saturday/sunday? how does it make any sense to not allow the elected members to participate? We're having one on Sunday. This thursday one is a sign-off meeting to ensure we've got relevant documentation agreed for all the ISSUEs submission templates we're taking to Iceland (agreed from the previous weeks). They need to be bundled up and sent to CCP by ANK by thursday evening at the latest. The meeting in this case is a formality to let us sort out the last issues and double check everyone has done their stuff. If we had to wait till sunday we'd be flying to Iceland with no Issues to discuss. While I can understand that might make Darius' workload a little easier its probably not the best use of our time or CCP's ISK.
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.11 16:23:00 - [13] This Thursday meeting is there purely to check we have the adequate documentation for the issues we have already voted for. AND to vote on the individual elements of multipart issues we've included on principle but haven't yet individually decided on. Its not going to be a formal meeting in the form of agenda and administrative stuff, its mostly a document-checking collaborative session. Members that can't make this meeting are welcome to send in the votes on individual parts of LaVista's, yours, and Ank's multi-part issues and we'll record them for the record. As for the timing it can't be helped really, we had to do this by Thursday as you know. It can't wait till the weekend and on a weeknight we have an issue with whats doable for the US people is too late for some EURO people. I took a decision based on what we have to achieve at that meeting. If it turns out to be me, ANK and you and six sets of mailed in multi-part votes then we won't be officially quorate but we can still help ANK on the secretarial duties of assembling the documents for CCP. All these things have already been voted "yes" on principle and we are within our rights to send them on. Re the proposal to use the proclamations forum for this - we haven't yet been told what that forum is for, it won't be read only and in the current climate of extreme forum trolling/spam campaigns from a certain group I don't believe it will be a conducive environment for this. Also its a waste of effort on our part, we're assembly word docs that will be available for all CSM reps to examine via the eve-csm list at the moment. I see no reason to increase the administrative burden on everyone further by reproducing this stuff on another forum section. We'll get the job done. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.11 16:39:00 - [14] Edited by: Jade Constantine on 11/06/2008 16:41:18 Originally by: Darius JOHNSON To be frank, provided it's not an actual voting meeting but rather an informal get-together where our opinions and such can be mailed in it's not really a big deal in my opinion. That was always the point Darius, its what I said when we brought it up last week. The formal meeting this week is Sunday 15th 18:00 hours. This one was always a document checking thing first and foremost. The mailed in votes we will need are on these 3 issues : UI (separate issues discussed in the op) http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=783206 Forums (several issues discussed in op) http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=778049 Economics (60 issues on PDF) http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=782682 CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.11 22:44:00 - [15] Originally by: Gabriel Darkefyre Originally by: Inanna Zuni <Snip! - Post regarding Time confusions> A simple solution to this matter given that you guys are all in different timezones would be for you to make any future deadlines in 24 Hour Format using Standard In-Game Time as the guide. Thats how we've been doing it so far.
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.11 22:48:00 - [16] Originally by: Farrqua Aren't you a little bit concerned that by pushing agendas that has no or very little support from the player base makes the CSM look foolish in the eyes of CCP? So when you do ask to push a "HOT BUTTON" item that has the support from the player base, CCP is not going to look at you and not take you seriously? Takes personal judgement really. If an issue has 30 decent supports and 200 iterations of the same argument against by the same corp/pressure group then the issue can still be raised by the decision of a CSM rep. We all have to learn to spam filter the issue threads and ignore the background noise. Our job is to get what we believe are decent suggestions that will be of value to the player base on the agenda. Its not our task to be popular by agreeing with the barking of a mob. That said, I think we've presented a very good cross-section of issues for this first session that do represent all the best suggestions made on the assembly hall that could be raised within the time constraints and 7 day advance discussion rule. If you feel we've forgotten something important that will have been up for open discusion for the 7 day mark by sunday's meeting then feel free to ask one of us to take a look.
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.11 23:20:00 - [17] Originally by: Fallorn When are turning Titans into monster trucks getting on the docket it has more support than your ******** destructible outposts you role playing female love slave lady of the night you. 200 ducks can quack at the same time, doesn't mean their composing an opera. And yes, I mean that goon threadnaughts mean nothing. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Jade Constantine Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.06.11 23:54:00 - [18] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto So anyone who opposes you is automatically a Goon and some insulting-sounding variety of animal, and as such their opinion can be discounted without further consideration? There are third-world dictators with less ego and chutzpah than that. You might have a point if the titans into monster truck thread didn't exist. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.06.12 15:55:00 - [19] Originally by: Inanna Zuni Back to timing a moment, I'm not quite sure why it has only just hit me but I'm partially double-booked this evening with a 'real life' meeting also taking place (probably because it was originally going to be last Thursday and got postponed a week, which I hadn't twigged was the same evening as this CSM meeting!) Anyway, the other meeting starts at 7pm UK (ie 6pm EVE) and isn't too far from my home, so I will hope to be online by 8pm EVE. I'll take my laptop and mobile connection dongle too so worst case is that I am battery powered in the car ;-P IZ Just in case of connection problems then can I ask you to make sure you mail in a list of vote preferences on the multi item Issues that we do need to vote for this evening please? CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.06.12 23:13:00 - [20] Meeting 4 is concluded, we discussed the documentation and debated the multi-item Issues. Took almost 3 hours with some good high quality debate from the CSM reps in attendance. Big thanks to everyone for this. Serenity should be adding the chatlogs to the CSM site soon, but until then I've posted the log on the Jericho public forums and is viewable here. Enjoy. Next meeting is on Sunday.
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.06.13 05:35:00 - [21] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Nynaeve Ares Good job chairing the meeting LaVista Vista. Is this permanent or is there a rotating chairmanship now? The reason I was leading debate was because I was raising the issues in question. But maybe that is a good thing, that it is kinda rotating in a sense? So each time we have a new person on the block to moderate the debate. I like that idea. Judging from yesterday, it could even work too! Very interesting idea. We should talk about it, certainly! Yep I think a rotating chair is a great idea. Share the admin load and give everyone a chance to do a bit of running meetings. Excellent stuff. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.06.13 14:25:00 - [22] Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto I hate to disagree with the standard take by the e-lawyers, but generally when writing club constitutions, "simple majority" is opposed by 2/3 majority, not by an absolute majority. Mind you, it's a simple majority of votes cast - Serenity's "abstain = no" position is absurd - but the rule to ban abstentions is "No abstentions", it isn't "simple majority", since that phrase just means 50%+1. Ironically it turned out that there was an appendix written for the original documents that explicitly stated that there was no abstention facility in voting on issues - as LaVista said the options were: Support Escalation, Deny Escalation. In order for an agenda ISSUE to reach the conference shortlist it needs a majority of "Support" votes from the those present. 5 for 8/9 - 4 for 7. And essentially Serenity was right. In this system you can't abstain and unless you are registering a "support" vote you are effectively saying "no". That said, I certainly don't blame anyone on the CSM or indeed anyone in the voting electorate for being confused on these issues, we're discovering these principles bit by bit in discussion and asking for clarification and its a bit playing pass the parcel with new ideas and interpretations hidden underneath each layer of wrapping paper. Main thing I think ALL of us (CSMs and forum public) can do is deal with this process with a few more philosophical shrugs and good humor. Lets not jump to conclusions and accusations. Its a bit of a mr slippies wild ride of adventures at the moment and we're discovering new things each week. All the best. CSM Manifesto 2008 \| Destroy Outposts!
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2008.06.13 18:03:00 - [23] Originally by: Zaphroid Eulthran Jade, I cannot find the issue of mid sized freighters listed in your op, according to what I read in the meeting chatlog this issue was supported by all members present at that meeting. Has this issue been dropped from the points being taken to CCP for some reason? if so why? I think its just a case of me mucking up and forgetting it on the op post I'm afraid. LaVista has the issue. He'll submit it directly to CCP with our apologies and we'll our best to get it on the agenda in Iceland. Sorry about that. (I'm going to edit it into the op now with an explanation)

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